Roger Clemens says he was injected, but ...

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barzilla		#21	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 3830 (01/04/2008 11:13 PM) Astros Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I realize I said I would not comment on the steroids issue anymore, but this one is screaming to me and we do have a new board (more or less). I'm certainly no expert, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong in these assumptions. First, I would assume that either B-12 or Lydacain are only legally obtained from a medical doctor licensed to prescribe medicine. I know some states don't even let denists use Lydacain because they are not trained in dispensing it (thus the need for people to go to oral surgeons to get their wisdom teeth extracted). While McNamee has a masters in health science, he is not a medical doctor and could not legally obtain those drugs to prescribe to others. So, either Roger Clemens legally obtained these drugs from a doctor and had McNamee administer them (highly irregular but somewhat believable) or the whole story is just a not so well thought out smokescreen. All Clemens has to do to prove his story is produce the doctor who prescribed him the medication. Better yet, if they have records of the prescription then it would be even better. Of course, I'm no expert so I could be wrong. I'm down with OBP (yeah you know me).
Clack		#22	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 12737 (01/05/2008 1:15 AM) Astros Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Barzilla, since the time period at issue is 7 or 8 years ago, I'm not sure that producing records of a prescription are that easy. (I know people whose medical records were destroyed by health care providers after shorter durations than that.) As far as I know, injectable B-12 is available without a prescription...at least, that is what several pharmacy web sites claim. I would assume injectable lidocaine normally requires a prescription. However, I notice that web sites for Canadian pharmacies state that injectable lidocaine (in a form without epinephrine) is available without a prescription for use in Canada. Since McNamee initially trained Clemens in Toronto, that raises an issue as to whether Canadian law may have allowed the trainer to inject it....I'm not an expert, though. After looking at a few medical articles which came up in a search on lidocaine injection, It is believable that Clemens received lidocaine injections for joint pain. One article indicates that two common uses of lidocaine injection are for rotator cuff irritation and biceps tendinitis, and that it may be used at those sites prior to cortisone injection. One would assume a physician should administer the injections...but who knows what might happen in the real world...It is probably better to wait until Sunday and find out what Clemens actually said before speculating.
RyanED		#23	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 26796 (01/05/2008 1:24 AM) Golden Boy Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Clack wrote: As far as I know, injectable B-12 is available without a prescription...at least, that is what several pharmacy web sites claim. Clack, that is what all the users like to say.
haibjp		#24	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 69 (01/05/2008 1:32 AM) Astros Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	I would be willing to bet lance did some sort of performance enhancing drugs. I mean look at his last years stats. Very sub par to his career numbers. I wouldnt be surprised to see lance mentioned in the future. I mean he was surronded with guys like bagwell and clemens.
RyanED		#25	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 26799 (01/05/2008 1:59 AM) Golden Boy Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Jose Canseco says he will mention a lot of players in his upcoming book ( players who weren't mentioned in the Mitchell Report ). Of course, how much can we truly believe Jose Canseco?
jb2k1		#26	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 3273 (01/05/2008 12:19 PM) BIGGIO-HOFer! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	For 2 Mill or less, yes. ...BUT he's GOT to supply his own needles! Butt, seriously, let "The Legend" start his personal services contract for the Astros, and then push him off into the sunset. ENOUGH! with the "is he gonna pitch?", "could he pitch?" and "would we want him?" blather! *Jimbob* Remembering '05 & wanting to go there again! ...and beyond! Last Edited By: jb2k1 01/06/2008 8:29 PM. Edited 1 times.
Phenomenal Smith		#27	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 1089 (01/05/2008 4:00 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Clack wrote: Barzilla, since the time period at issue is 7 or 8 years ago, I'm not sure that producing records of a prescription are that easy. (I know people whose medical records were destroyed by health care providers after shorter durations than that.) I think medical records are generally kept for seven years. After that I believe they are supposed to be shredded or otherwise destroyed. I'm outta here. feel free to email me at h_towngrooves at yahoo .com.
Clack		#28	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 12738 (01/05/2008 4:25 PM) Astros Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Phenomenal Smith wrote: Clack wrote: Barzilla, since the time period at issue is 7 or 8 years ago, I'm not sure that producing records of a prescription are that easy. (I know people whose medical records were destroyed by health care providers after shorter durations than that.) I think medical records are generally kept for seven years. After that I believe they are supposed to be shredded or otherwise destroyed. P-Smith, I suppose that means that the medical records surrounding the period of the McNamee allegations would be destroyed by now.
barzilla		#29	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 3832 (01/05/2008 5:00 PM) Astros Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Keep in mind that Toronto was only one of the two locations where this happens. I can buy Canadian law, but didn't Clemens acknowledge injections of B-12 and Lidocaine as a Yankee as well? Again, either Clemens acquired those drugs illegally or a doctor prescribed them. While the records may be destroyed, the doctor can still testify to the fact that he prescribed them. Clemens has the right to waive the doctor-client privaledge. I guess what I'm saying is that if he really was innocent he could have asked for a sworn statement from the doctor to give to the Mitchell investigative team before the report was released. Mitchell said he gave all of the players the opportunity to answer the allegations. Mind you, no court of law would ever convict Clemens, but the court of public opinion (or the court of the BBWAA) certainly will. I'm down with OBP (yeah you know me).
Berkmaniac		#30	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 1182 (01/05/2008 5:16 PM) Astros Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The justice system still functions by the phrase "innocent until proven guilty". If Clemens is innocent, why should he have to go out of his way to prove himself innocent? He doesn't have to. And since it does not seem that there is any way he will be proven guilty...he's innocent. But you are right, in the court of public opinion, he will be guilty.
Eric		#31	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 341 (01/05/2008 5:50 PM) Astros Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	RyanED wrote: "Swear?" Wallace asked. "(I) swear," Clemens replied, according to the network. "Pinky swear?" Wallace followed up. Clemens extended his little finger, locked digits with Wallace and each kissed the back of their respective hands. CBS could not confirm whether or not Clemens had the fingers of his other hand crossed at the time of the pinky promise.
RyanED		#32	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 26815 (01/05/2008 6:19 PM) Golden Boy Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Berkmaniac wrote: If Clemens is innocent, why should he have to go out of his way to prove himself innocent? He doesn't have to. A competitor with as much pride as Roger Clemens isn't going to let his reputation become diminished by anyone.
Clack		#33	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 12739 (01/05/2008 7:19 PM) Astros Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Quote: but didn't Clemens acknowledge injections of B-12 and Lidocaine as a Yankee as well? CBS only gave a "teaser" release of the interview. It didn't indicate whether Clemens acknowledged any locations for receiving injections of lidocaine or B-12 or whether those injections by McNamee were the same events as alleged by McNamee. We'll have to see the 60 minutes interview to know what he says. Quote: Again, either Clemens acquired those drugs illegally or a doctor prescribed them. While the records may be destroyed, the doctor can still testify to the fact that he prescribed them. Clemens has the right to waive the doctor-client privaledge. I don't think the B-12 requires a prescription. If the lidocaine was prescribed by a doctor, does Clemens recall whom it is and, if he does, will the doctor recall prescribing it? Do team physicians allow trainers to administer lidocane? Did McNamee buy it in Canada and bring it the U.S.? We don't know the answers to any of these questions. Pitchers receive a multitude of injections, like pain killers or anti-inflammatories, over their career. Who know if this would be like finding a needle in a haystack.
Lisa Gray		#34	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 7 (01/05/2008 9:02 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	B-12 can be obtained without a prescription. not sure about lidocaine, but it sure is not any sort of controlled substance. it would be like giving your friend one of your allegra pills. which, by the way, is illegal to do, in case you didn't know. but of course you'd have to have millions more cops out there if that law was to be enforced. and of course, lidocaine wouldn't be injected into the buttocks, but into a joint or near a tendon. i wouldn't be surprised at all if more than a few trainers did stuff like that. something INTERESTING about how folks keep on talking about how mcnamee injects foreign substances into clemens BUTTOCKS. and, by the way, HGH is most definitely not injected into the buttocks, but into the skin of the abdomen or upper arm. but that isn't near as exciting as the image of one man fooling with another man's butt, now, is it?
barzilla		#35	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 3834 (01/05/2008 9:35 PM) Astros Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Good points all. Of course, we have to wait for the airing of the interview, but I wish someone would ask these questions. I concede the B-12 argument, but still hang onto the Lidocaine question. I'm down with OBP (yeah you know me).
Ray Kerby		#36	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 1498 (01/06/2008 12:29 AM) Some Guy Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Even Clemens' lawyer knows that Pettitte's admission validates McNamee's account. Read his responses: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/01/sports/baseball/01chass.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin Question No. 2: Considering that you are trying to undermine Brian McNamee's credibility, hasn't Andy Pettitte established the trainer's credibility? "Great question," Hardin said. "I don't have an answer for it."
Ray Kerby		#37	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 1499 (01/06/2008 12:39 AM) Some Guy Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Berkmaniac wrote: Ray Kerby wrote: MacNamee has far more credibility than Clemens at this point. He also claimed to have injected Pettitte with HGH and, guess what? Pettitte admits to knowingly getting HGH. That gives MacNamee's testimony a lot more credibility. It is unreasonable to think that MacNamee openly injected Pettitte with HGH, but secretly deceived Pettitte's best buddy (Clemens) into thinking that he was getting B12. I was a big Clemens fan, but he was clearly just another steroids fraud. He is lying now to try and save whatever legacy he has left. I'm not saying that Clemens did not do steroids, but Smith is right on this one. Not only are his points legitimate reasons to doubt McNamee, but the guy would have gone to jail if he didn't say anything. I could come up with a real good story if I was put in that situation...even if part of the story were true (Pettitte). I don't think he is "just another steroids fraud" either. He was a darn good pitcher even before he allegedly took steroids. The performance enhancers that Clemens took supposedly started in Toronto. Up until then, he had 192 career wins at age 34 (over 13 seasons), when power pitchers traditionally start to fade. But somehow, almost miraculously, Clemens won 162 more games (over 11 seasons) and adds FOUR more Cy Young awards during what should have been his fading years. Now his trainer admits to giving him performance enhancing drugs, along with another teammate and close friend, who has confirmed this. Now it looks like that Clemens is as much of a FRAUD as Barry Bonds. Just because he was an Astro for a few years does not mean he deserves any sympathy for being a cheat.
jb2k1		#38	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 3275 (01/06/2008 12:56 AM) BIGGIO-HOFer! Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	The performance enhancers that Clemens took supposedly started in Toronto. Up until then, he had 192 career wins at age 34 (over 13 seasons), when power pitchers traditionally start to fade. But somehow, almost miraculously, Clemens won 162 more games (over 11 seasons) and adds FOUR more Cy Young awards during what should have been his fading years. Now his trainer admits to giving him performance enhancing drugs, along with another teammate and close friend, who has confirmed this. Now it looks like that Clemens is as much of a FRAUD as Barry Bonds. Just because he was an Astro for a few years does not mean he deserves any sympathy for being a cheat. AMEN! Couldn't have said it better myself, Ray. *Jimbob* Remembering '05 & wanting to go there again! ...and beyond!
Berkmaniac		#39	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 1185 (01/06/2008 8:28 AM) Astros Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Ray Kerby wrote: The performance enhancers that Clemens took supposedly started in Toronto. Up until then, he had 192 career wins at age 34 (over 13 seasons), when power pitchers traditionally start to fade. But somehow, almost miraculously, Clemens won 162 more games (over 11 seasons) and adds FOUR more Cy Young awards during what should have been his fading years. Nolan Ryan had 146 wins from the age of 34 and after (13 seasons). He pitched over 170 innings in all but his last 2 seasons. He retired when he was 46 years old. He had over 300 strikeouts in the 1989 season when he was 42 years old. He has the best season WHIPs of his career at ages 42, 43, and 44. He threw a no-hitter at age 43 and 44. Does this mean that Nolan Ryan did steroids because he somehow, almost miraculously did very well during what should have been his fading years?
Clack		#40	[-]
Astros Fan Posts: 12741 (01/06/2008 8:40 AM) Astros Fan Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts Report Post	Clemens' greatest performances as an older player were with the Astros, particularly 2005. However, he was drug tested for steroids in that period. While HGH might evade testing, the scientific evidence indicates that it does not aid performance or increase strength. In my mind, this is the biggest problem with trying to link Clemens' alleged steroid use with performance. I think the MLB testing program has been effective since it was upgraded and penalties were enhanced beginning with the 2005 season. The period of Clemens performance which is superlative is also a time when it seems provable that he did not use steroids.

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Roger Clemens says he was injected, but ...

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